I didn't want to answer this Kyle, because there is a mistake from the very beginning, but since you are answering me in full and wasting your time, I will do this as well to explain to you
1. The Quran does not mention the Bible. And let's not even start with this, but which version of the Bible exactly? Protestant, Orthodox? Catholic? They all have a different number of canonical books.
2. Since when did you drag the Old Testament and the New Testament into the previous scriptures? Since when did you drag in books whose authors are not even known and drag them into the previous scriptures that the Quran talks about. Isa (peace be upon him) had only one gospel, which of them are you talking about? Also, the Quran talks about the Torah of Moses, and not about the one that you have today. The author of which, as Jerome of Stridnos says, is not Moses, but Ezdra.
Where does the Quran even once talk about the letters of Paul or others like him?
,,The Quran says that the Old and New cannot be distorted,,
In the Quran itself there are many accusations against the Jews and Christians that they distorted their scriptures. For example, 2 surah 75 verse. In the same surah in verse 79 Allah repeats: Woe to those who write the Scripture with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to buy with it a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written! Woe to them for what they earn!
In just one verse there are 4 indications that the distortions were WRITTEN.
So what gospel did Jesus have? Unless there were 4 canonical ones, and about 100 non-canonical ones. What gospel is the Quran talking about?
“He has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what came before. And He sent down the Torah and the Gospel. Before that, as a guidance for mankind. And He sent down the Qur’an.” 3:3–4
This verse simply refutes your claim kayl. They were the true guidance before the Qur’an (and now they are not even there).
,,It is clear enough that the Qur’an states that Allah gave the Torah and the Gospel — the Old and New Testaments.,,
Where does it say new and old testaments? Lol.
“And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.” 6:115,,
This is not even about the scripture, but simply about a promise, you should have read the context.
,,And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words.” 18:27
That's right, the Quran cannot be changed. Why are you adding the Bible to this?
All the following verses are simply about Allah's promise to help his people.
There is no mention of the Bible in the Quran at all, only the Taurat, Injil and Zabur.
3. And your scripture itself does not claim that the Bible is inspired by God. Why?
Paul in his second letter to Timothy says, "All scripture is inspired by God," But he says these words in relation to the Old Testament, because at that time the New Testament did not even exist. The Epistle of James, Jude, and the Revelation of John the Theologian were written after Paul.
“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9, NIV),,
In that case, you must deify Moses, since God says to him - I will make you a god for Pharaoh, and I will appoint Aaron as a prophet.
Then deify the judges in the books of Psalms: God stands in the divine assembly; he pronounces judgment among the gods (82:1)
And you can also deify Satan, who in the Bible is called a god and the owner of this world (I think in the letter to the Corinthians).
,,ALL the fullness of God lives in Jesus — which means that Jesus is God. There is no part of the fullness of God that is missing from Jesus. All the fullness of God — everything that it means to be God, everything that God is — lives in Jesus in bodily form.,,
In that case, Satan, Moses and the judges are also gods.
And no, Jesus himself and his apostles did not even think that he was God, that came later
“These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, ESV),
And where is Jesus called God here? According to the Bible, all the people of Israel are the sons of God, David and the angels are also the sons of God
My friend, this will be a good conversation. It has to be in multiple parts, because it's longer than is allowed for one comment.
You said:
"I didn't want to answer this Kyle, because there is a mistake from the very beginning, but since you are answering me in full and wasting your time, I will do this as well to explain to you."
This is no waste, my friend. Let's hash this all out.
This kind of stuff is worth taking the time to talk about well.
You said:
"1. The Quran does not mention the Bible. And let's not even start with this, but which version of the Bible exactly? Protestant, Orthodox? Catholic? They all have a different number of canonical books."
First: all of those Bibles have the same core 66 books -- 39 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New. They all agree on these. The Catholic and Orthodox add a few, but they don't take away any of the core 66.
As for whether the Quran mentions the Bible, you'll see that clearly in response to your next point.
You said:
"2. Since when did you drag the Old Testament and the New Testament into the previous scriptures? Since when did you drag in books whose authors are not even known and drag them into the previous scriptures that the Quran talks about. Isa (peace be upon him) had only one gospel, which of them are you talking about? Also, the Quran talks about the Torah of Moses, and not about the one that you have today."
The Quran directly mentions the previous Scriptures. It states openly that Allah gave the previous Scriptures. It says so right here:
“He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Qur'an.” 3:3–4
Do you see it, my friend?
Quran 3:3-4 states that the same Allah who revealed the Quran also revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
Then:
“And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.” 5:46
Do you see the connection?
Allah gave Jesus the Gospel, which confirms that Torah that preceded it.
We have the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It's right there in the New Testament.
Mark, the second book in the New Testament, begins this way:
"The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
This is the Gospel of Jesus. It's right there in black and white, my friend.
Because of 5:46, we can prove that this Gospel confirms the Torah in the Old Testament we have. We can prove it's this Torah we read today, not some lost version.
How can we? Because Jesus quotes the Torah constantly. In the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which the New Testament contains, Jesus quotes from and references the Torah we have in our Old Testament consistently. We can therefore prove that this is the Torah that Jesus knew.
Muslims like to invent ideas like a lost Torah or a Gospel that no one recorded, but such things don't fit the evidence, my friend.
You said:
"The author of which, as Jerome of Stridnos says, is not Moses, but Ezdra."
That story comes from a few hundred years AFTER the time of Jesus. Porphyry of Tyre claimed that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the Torah when he invaded in 586 BC, and Ezra the Scribe reconstructed it a century later.
The problem is that there is no evidence of this. At all. It's a made-up story.
Further, like I said above, we can prove that the Torah Jesus knew in the first century is the same Torah we read today. It contains the same verses, the same teachings, the same narratives.
We haven't lost anything.
You said:
"Where does the Quran even once talk about the letters of Paul or others like him?"
Right here, my friend:
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute." S. 3:55
O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the Disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, AND THEY BECAME THE ONES THAT PREVAILED. S. 61:14
Who are the ones that prevailed? Paul and the others who came after him.
The Quran states that Allah will only allow Jesus' true followers to prevail, to be superior to false followers, or those who would distort the message.
Therefore, if you believe the Quran, you have to accept that Paul is a true follower of Jesus, and that Paul prevailed because Allah made him superior to those who would distort the message.
My friend, I'm only quoting your own Quran back to you. Unfortunately, a lot of imams do not teach the truth about their own book!
You said:
,,The Quran says that the Old and New cannot be distorted,,
In the Quran itself there are many accusations against the Jews and Christians that they distorted their scriptures. For example, 2 surah 75 verse. In the same surah in verse 79 Allah repeats: "Woe to those who write the Scripture with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to buy with it a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written! Woe to them for what they earn! In just one verse there are 4 indications that the distortions were WRITTEN."
My friend, look back at what you quoted. It doesn't say anything about the Old or New Testaments being corrupted.
Rather, it critiques those who write down something with their own hands and call it Scripture. I agree: woe to those who write something new down with their own hands and call it Scripture! That's a terrible idea.
But there's no mention of the Torah or Gospel in this verse. It doesn't say anything about corrupting what was already written down.
You said:
"So what gospel did Jesus have? Unless there were 4 canonical ones, and about 100 non-canonical ones. What gospel is the Quran talking about?"
The four canonical Gospels are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Do you know why they are the only canonical ones?
For starters, simply compare them to all the other supposed gospels. You'll find that there isn't another one that comes anywhere close to their length. All the others are tiny, a few chapters at most, and don't come anywhere near the robustness of the Four.
Further, the canonical four are the earliest. The first. All the others came later, a generation or more after the first four were written.
Tatian wrote the Diatessaron in the 150's. The Diatessaron combined the Gospels into one account. He only included Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Why? Because they were already acknowledged as the only canonical ones, and many of the false gospels hadn't even been written yet.
You said:
“He has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what came before. And He sent down the Torah and the Gospel. Before that, as a guidance for mankind. And He sent down the Qur’an.” 3:3–4
This verse simply refutes your claim kayl. They were the true guidance before the Qur’an (and now they are not even there)."
Not so, my friend. It's all in one word: CONFIRMING.
The Quran CONFIRMS that which came before, which means that Mohammed had accurate copies of what came before, such that he could see the Quran confirming them.
And guess what?
We know what Torah and Gospel Mohammed had.
We have complete copies of the Old and New Testaments from centuries before Mohammed's time. We can prove that the Bible he knew has not been corrupted since his time.
If the Bible had already been corrupted by Mohammed's time, then the Quran couldn't confirm it. Why? Because it would be confirming a corruption!
The only way the Quran can confirm anything is if Mohammed had accurate copies of the Bible which could be confirmed.
Otherwise, the Quran would have to correct the Bible. But that's not what the verse says. It never talks of the Quran correcting a corrupted Bible. Rather, it talks of the Quran confirming an accurate Bible.
You said:
",,It is clear enough that the Qur’an states that Allah gave the Torah and the Gospel — the Old and New Testaments.,,
Where does it say new and old testaments? Lol."
It says it in the words "Torah" and "Gospel."
The Torah is recorded in the Old Testament. The Gospel is recorded in the New.
You said:
“And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.” 6:115,,
This is not even about the scripture, but simply about a promise, you should have read the context."
Are you suggesting that the Scriptures are NOT Allah's words?
Because that's what would have to be true, if your words are true.
If this verse isn't about the Scriptures, then you're denying that Allah gave the Quran. You're saying the Quran is not the words of Allah. You can't be a Muslim and believe such a thing!
Rather, this verse states that no one can alter Allah's words, wherever Allah's words are. The Quran claims in multiple places that the Quran, Torah, and Gospel are Allah's words -- they come from Allah. Therefore, this verse means they cannot be altered.
",And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words.” 18:27
That's right, the Quran cannot be changed. Why are you adding the Bible to this?"
The verse doesn't say the Quran cannot be changed.
The verse says that Allah's words cannot be changed.
And the Quran says the Torah and Gospel are the words of Allah.
That's why I add the Bible to this: because the Quran adds the Bible to this.
You said:
"All the following verses are simply about Allah's promise to help his people.
There is no mention of the Bible in the Quran at all, only the Taurat, Injil and Zabur."
The Taurat (Torah) and Injil (Gospel) ARE the Bible, my friend.
You said:
"3. And your scripture itself does not claim that the Bible is inspired by God. Why?
Paul in his second letter to Timothy says, "All scripture is inspired by God," But he says these words in relation to the Old Testament, because at that time the New Testament did not even exist. The Epistle of James, Jude, and the Revelation of John the Theologian were written after Paul."
My friend, read what Paul wrote!
He didn't say "all previous Scripture is inspired by God."
He said "ALL Scripture is inspired by God."
That includes the Scripture he was actively writing by saying this, as well as the books that would come next.
Paul never limits this statement to only the Old Testament.
You said:
“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9, NIV),,
In that case, you must deify Moses, since God says to him - I will make you a god for Pharaoh, and I will appoint Aaron as a prophet."
My friend, those two verses don't even connect.
Moses never has all the fullness of God dwelling in him. Only Jesus does.
God never says that He will make Moses into God. He says "a god for Pharoah," not for anyone else.
The OT word for God, "El," often refers to people in positions of authority over others, in this case.
Jesus alone has all the fullness of God dwelling in Him, which means Jesus is God.
My friend, whose body has all the fullness of Shamil dwelling in it? Your body. Your body is you, because all the fullness of you dwells in your body.
All the fullness of God dwells in Jesus. Jesus is God, because all the fullness of God dwells in Jesus.
You said:
"Then deify the judges in the books of Psalms: God stands in the divine assembly; he pronounces judgment among the gods (82:1)
And you can also deify Satan, who in the Bible is called a god and the owner of this world (I think in the letter to the Corinthians)."
Again, the Bible will often refer to a person or angelic being in a position of authority as "a god," a lower-case god, simply to indicate their position of authority. It mimics the real God who stands in authority over everyone.
But no one has the fullness of God dwelling in Him except for Jesus.
Because only Jesus is God.
You said:
",,ALL the fullness of God lives in Jesus — which means that Jesus is God. There is no part of the fullness of God that is missing from Jesus. All the fullness of God — everything that it means to be God, everything that God is — lives in Jesus in bodily form.,,
In that case, Satan, Moses and the judges are also gods."
No, they aren't, because they are never said to have the fullness of God dwelling in them.
You said:
"And no, Jesus himself and his apostles did not even think that he was God, that came later
“These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, ESV),"
And where is Jesus called God here?"
The phrase "the Son of God" means that Jesus is God.
How? In the same way that the son of the king is the king.
Who is the future king? The son of the king. To be the son of the king is to be qualified to be king.
In Israel, the son of the king and the king were kings at the same time. David and Solomon were both considered the king even before David died. To be the son of the king was to be the king.
To be the Son of God is to be God.
You said:
"According to the Bible, all the people of Israel are the sons of God, David and the angels are also the sons of God"
These are different phrases, my friend.
No one else is ever called the Son of God except for Jesus.
For a group to be "the sons of God" isn't the same thing. It's the difference between a king calling a crowd of people "My children" and the king saying of the crown prince "This is my Son." Even though he's using offspring words in each, they're very different phrases, meaning very different things.
Only Jesus is the Son of God.
Because being the Son of God is being God.
And again, being "the Son of God" does not mean Jesus is the OFFSPRING of God. Jesus was not sired by God.
Remember: ALL the fullness of God dwells in Jesus.
If Jesus was a normal child, He'd have half of his father's DNA and half of his mother's. He would be half his father, half his mother.
But Jesus isn't half God, half human.
ALL the fullness of God dwells in Jesus -- not half.
Jesus is fully God. ALL the fullness of God dwells in Jesus, because Jesus is God.
----
My friend, I appreciate this conversation.
I ask you to go back and read every point seriously.
My answer: American Christian scholar and Arabist Sidney Griffith argues that the "Gospel" [ḷnǧyl] mentioned in the Qur'an is the name of a divine revelation, not a written Gospel from the biblical canon.
"For while the Qur'an, following both contemporary Jewish and Christian views, recognizes the Torah as a scripture revealed by God to Moses, "We have written for him in Tablets everything" (al-Araaf 145) - the Gospel that the Qur'an affirms is not the Gospel as it was recognized by Christians at the time of the Qur'an.
The Qur'an here most likely follows the pattern of its own prophetology, and speaks of the Gospel as the scripture that God gave to Jesus: And We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light, confirming what had been sent down before in the Taurat (Torah) (Al-Ma'idah 46; Al-Hadid 27).
• Sidney H. Griffith «The Bible in Arabic: The Scriptures of the "People of the Book" in the Language of Islam»
2) On the distortion of the text of the Torah by the Jews in the Quran and the words of the Companion and Tabi'in.
In the Quran, the Lord says:
"Because they broke the covenant, We cursed them and hardened their hearts. They distort the words, changing their places, and have forgotten some of what they were taught. You will always find them betraying, except for a few of them. So forgive them and be generous. Indeed, Allah loves those who do good."
In the tafsir of Ibn Abi Hatim (240 g/h. - 327 g/h.) it is given: : " : " اليهود التوراة
Hajjaj ibn Hamza told us, from Shabab from Warqa, from Ibn Abi Najih from Mujahid, his statement: “They distort words by changing their places”: the Jews change the Torah.
All rights reserved. ن أبي طلحة ، عن ابن عباس « يحرفون الكلم عن مواضعه » يعني : يحرفون حدود الله في التوراة
My father told me, Abu Salih Katib Al-Layth told us, Muawiya bin Salih told me from Ali ibn Abu Talha, from Ibn Abbas: “They distort words by changing their places,” which means: they distort the rulings of Allah in the Torah.
See "Tafsir Ibn Abi Hatim", (1/965).
2) These verses only speak about the Quran.
The proof of the distortion of the Injil is the words of the Most High: “And We took a covenant from those who said, ‘We are Christians.’ They forgot some of what they were reminded of, so We stirred up among them enmity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah will inform them of what they used to do. O People of the Book! There has come to you Our Messenger, making clear to you much of what you were concealing of the Book, and he forbears from much of it” (Al-Ma’idah, 5:14-15).
In interpreting the last verse, some of the commentators of the Quran said: “He makes clear what they have changed, distorted, misinterpreted, or invented, and he conceals much of what they have changed, because there is no benefit in making it clear” (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, 3/63).
These verses indicate that the Taurat and Injeel have been corrupted and changed, and therefore Muslim scholars are unanimous in this regard.
Evidence that the Quran has not been corrupted and is protected by Allah.
The Great Quran is protected from the corruption and changes that previous scriptures have undergone. Allah has revealed that He cares for it and protects it from corruption: “Indeed, We have sent down the Reminder, and We will guard it” (al-Hijr, 15:9). At-Tabari, commenting on this verse, said: “Allah said that He guards the Quran from having anything added to it that does not belong to it, or from having some of its injunctions, restrictions, and commands removed” (Tafsir Ibn Jarir, 14/7).
In other verses, Allah also informed us about the perfection of the Quran, that the verses of the Quran are explained in detail and have nothing to do with lies. The Almighty Lord said: “No lie will come upon it from before or behind. It has been sent down from the Wise, the Praiseworthy” (Fussilat, 41:42); “Alif. Lam. Ra. This is a Book whose verses have been clearly explained, then explained by the Wise, the Knowing” (Hud, 11:1); “Do not move your tongue in repeating it (the Quran) to hasten your memorization. We must collect it and recite it” (al-Qiyamah, 75:16-17).
From these verses, it is clear that from the moment the Quran was sent down, Allah has been guarding its text and meaning in the most perfect manner, and even when Allah raises it to Himself, the Quranic revelations will be free from any distortion or change. For many centuries, in different countries, adults and children have been reading it in the same form in which Allah sent it down to His Messenger, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.
Muslim theologians have pointed out that amazing, barely noticeable subtlety that allows us to find an answer to the question of why the Taurat could be distorted, but this is impossible with the Quran. Abu Amr ad-Dani narrated from Abu al-Hasan al-Muntab: “I was once with the qadi Abu Ishaq Ismail bin Ishaq, and he was asked: “Why could the Taurat be distorted, but the Quran cannot?” The qadi answered: “The Great and Mighty Allah said about the followers of the Taurat: “The rabbis and the chief priests did the same in accordance with what they were entrusted to preserve from the Book of Allah” (al-Maida, 5:44). The protection of the Taurat was entrusted to them and its distortion became possible. And it is said about the Quran: “Verily, We have sent down the Reminder and We are the guardians thereof” (al-Hijr, 15:9). Therefore, its distortion is impossible.” Then I went to Abu Abdullah al-Muhamili and told him this story, to which he said: “I have never heard a more beautiful answer.”
3) Having retroactively attributed their prejudices to scripture, Christians have begun to appeal to scripture, retroactively, attempting to justify their terms with different words from scripture that are somehow similar to their terminology, thereby attempting to unite their inventions, which they call tradition, with what they call scripture. One such attempt is to unite the epistles of Paul, with John 1:1, that Paul supposedly believed in two natures and that the epistles agree with John, when, at the time Paul wrote his texts, none of the four (gospels) had been written, and Paul, as we know, relied on his own revelation. According to D. Wallace, Paul was a primitive binitarian and subordinationist.
The Gospel of John differs in content from the other three, the so-called "synoptic" Gospels of the New Testament. And we do not know the real author of this Gospel
Hello Shamil! I'm sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you. This is Part 1 of 2.
You said:
"My answer: American Christian scholar and Arabist Sidney Griffith argues that the "Gospel" [ḷnǧyl] mentioned in the Qur'an is the name of a divine revelation, not a written Gospel from the biblical canon."
He's wrong.
"The Gospel of Jesus Christ" is right there in the first line of Mark.
We don't have to appeal to some nebulous revelation when we have it in writing right in front of our eyes.
You said:
"For while the Qur'an, following both contemporary Jewish and Christian views, recognizes the Torah as a scripture revealed by God to Moses, "We have written for him in Tablets everything" (al-Araaf 145) - the Gospel that the Qur'an affirms is not the Gospel as it was recognized by Christians at the time of the Qur'an."
Muslims keep trying to say that the Gospel the Quran refers to is not the Gospel in the Bible, but they can never prove it.
I understand why Muslims want to deny this. They don't want to see the Quran affirming the Gospels in the Bible. They don't want to admit that the Quran states the Bible cannot be corrupted.
Yet that's the straight-forward view of the simple Quranic passages.
You said:
"The Qur'an here most likely follows the pattern of its own prophetology, and speaks of the Gospel as the scripture that God gave to Jesus: And We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light, confirming what had been sent down before in the Taurat (Torah) (Al-Ma'idah 46; Al-Hadid 27)."
And what is that Gospel? Where do we find it?
Recorded in the four Gospels in the Bible, especially the one that begins by saying "The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ..." (Mark 1:1).
You said:
"2) On the distortion of the text of the Torah by the Jews in the Quran and the words of the Companion and Tabi'in. In the Quran, the Lord says:
"Because they broke the covenant, We cursed them and hardened their hearts. They distort the words, changing their places, and have forgotten some of what they were taught. You will always find them betraying, except for a few of them. So forgive them and be generous. Indeed, Allah loves those who do good."
Hajjaj ibn Hamza told us, from Shabab from Warqa, from Ibn Abi Najih from Mujahid, his statement: “They distort words by changing their places”: the Jews change the Torah."
You just defeated yourself, my friend.
Ask yourself: how would anyone know that the Jews had changed anything?
There's only one way to know: you have an uncorrupted copy to compare it to.
The passage even admits that "a few of them" are not corrupting anything.
Further, do you seriously think the Jews were able to track down every single copy of the Torah in existence and corrupt all of them? How could they?
The Christians possessed thousands of copies of the Torah that the Jews did not have access to. They Christians knew and loved these Scriptures. They wouldn't let them be corrupted.
There's no possible way anyone could have corrupted every single copy of the Torah, my friend.
You said:
"My father told me, Abu Salih Katib Al-Layth told us, Muawiya bin Salih told me from Ali ibn Abu Talha, from Ibn Abbas: “They distort words by changing their places,” which means: they distort the rulings of Allah in the Torah."
Again, the only way you'd know that they distorted anything was that you have a non-distorted copy to compare them to.
This very passage is proof that un-corrupted copies of the Torah existed, such that they could see how people tried to distort the words in other copies.
You said:
"2) These verses only speak about the Quran."
The Quran itself states that they apply to the Torah and Injeel/Gospel.
Do you disagree with Allah?
You said:
"The proof of the distortion of the Injil is the words of the Most High: “And We took a covenant from those who said, ‘We are Christians.’ They forgot some of what they were reminded of, so We stirred up among them enmity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah will inform them of what they used to do. O People of the Book! There has come to you Our Messenger, making clear to you much of what you were concealing of the Book, and he forbears from much of it” (Al-Ma’idah, 5:14-15)."
Where does this say anything about distortion?
It mentions people concealing things that were in the Book, but no mention of them distorting or changing anything.
Neither does it claim the Book itself was altered.
You said:
"In interpreting the last verse, some of the commentators of the Quran said: “He makes clear what they have changed, distorted, misinterpreted, or invented, and he conceals much of what they have changed, because there is no benefit in making it clear” (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, 3/63)."
Commentators aren't the Quran.
The Quran itself never says the Torah or Injeel were corrupted.
"These verses indicate that the Taurat and Injeel have been corrupted and changed, and therefore Muslim scholars are unanimous in this regard."
These verses don't say anything like that, my friend.
You said:
"Evidence that the Quran has not been corrupted and is protected by Allah.
The Great Quran is protected from the corruption and changes that previous scriptures have undergone. Allah has revealed that He cares for it and protects it from corruption: “Indeed, We have sent down the Reminder, and We will guard it” (al-Hijr, 15:9). At-Tabari, commenting on this verse, said: “Allah said that He guards the Quran from having anything added to it that does not belong to it, or from having some of its injunctions, restrictions, and commands removed” (Tafsir Ibn Jarir, 14/7)."
This is false.
Verses have been removed from the Quran. The Quran that you have today is not the shape it has always had.
Consider: "A 10th-century manuscript known as BNF Arabe 370a has several places where the original text has been erased and replaced with the text matching the modern reading in different handwriting. The interesting thing is that, in each of these places, the modern text is too long to fit into the erased space and must be crammed in with smaller print.13 This seems to indicate that the manuscript originally preserved a text that was in several places shorter (and therefore obviously different) than the text we have today. These kinds of examples show that, while the overall text of the Quran appears to be rather stable for most of its history, in the past there were certainly readings substantively different than what we have today." https://carm.org/islam/have-there-been-changes-to-the-quran/
You said:
"From these verses, it is clear that from the moment the Quran was sent down, Allah has been guarding its text and meaning in the most perfect manner, and even when Allah raises it to Himself, the Quranic revelations will be free from any distortion or change. For many centuries, in different countries, adults and children have been reading it in the same form in which Allah sent it down to His Messenger, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him."
My friend, the Quran has been changed.
Consider this example:
The “Great Paris Manuscript,” one of the earliest manuscripts of the Quran, has a small but rather significant variant in Surah 3:158. The standard text today reads, “And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! It is unto Allah that ye are brought together.” However, in the Paris Manuscript, there is a single additional letter not found in the modern text that reverses the meaning entirely. The verse then reads that if you die or are slain, you are NOT brought together unto Allah. https://carm.org/islam/have-there-been-changes-to-the-quran/
You said:
"Muslim theologians have pointed out that amazing, barely noticeable subtlety that allows us to find an answer to the question of why the Taurat could be distorted, but this is impossible with the Quran. Abu Amr ad-Dani narrated from Abu al-Hasan al-Muntab: “I was once with the qadi Abu Ishaq Ismail bin Ishaq, and he was asked: “Why could the Taurat be distorted, but the Quran cannot?” The qadi answered: “The Great and Mighty Allah said about the followers of the Taurat: “The rabbis and the chief priests did the same in accordance with what they were entrusted to preserve from the Book of Allah” (al-Maida, 5:44). The protection of the Taurat was entrusted to them and its distortion became possible. And it is said about the Quran: “Verily, We have sent down the Reminder and We are the guardians thereof” (al-Hijr, 15:9). Therefore, its distortion is impossible.” Then I went to Abu Abdullah al-Muhamili and told him this story, to which he said: “I have never heard a more beautiful answer.”
This means nothing, next to the Quran itself.
It's the Quran that states the Torah and Injeel/Gospel are from Allah and cannot be changed.
No matter how many scholars you can find who want to reach a different conclusion, they can't change the words of the Quran, here.
You said:
"3) Having retroactively attributed their prejudices to scripture, Christians have begun to appeal to scripture, retroactively, attempting to justify their terms with different words from scripture that are somehow similar to their terminology, thereby attempting to unite their inventions, which they call tradition, with what they call scripture. One such attempt is to unite the epistles of Paul, with John 1:1, that Paul supposedly believed in two natures and that the epistles agree with John, when, at the time Paul wrote his texts, none of the four (gospels) had been written, and Paul, as we know, relied on his own revelation. According to D. Wallace, Paul was a primitive binitarian and subordinationist."
I can't find any such quote by Wallace.
Paul agrees with the Gospels in theology. Despite many claims by Muslim scholars to try to separate the two, every major piece of theology Paul teaches is present in the Gospels.
Further, Paul quotes the Gospel of Luke, and appeals to prophecies written only in Matthew and Mark. Paul knew the Gospels.
You said:
"The Gospel of John differs in content from the other three, the so-called "synoptic" Gospels of the New Testament. And we do not know the real author of this Gospel"
Sure we do.
Papias was a Bishop of Hieropolis at the end of the first century and beginning of the second. He knew John the Apostle personally. The Anti-Marcionite Prologue to John records that Papias served as John's scribe. John dictated and Papias wrote down his words as the Gospel of John.
It says: "“The Gospel of John was revealed and given to the churches by John while still in the body, just as Papias of Hieropolis, the close disciple of John, related in the exoterics, that is, in the last five books. Indeed he wrote down the gospel, while John was dictating carefully” (translation by De Bruyne)"
---------
My friend, the facts are simple.
The Quran states that the Torah and Injeel/Gospel are from Allah and cannot be changed.
No matter how many scholars you find who want to disagree with that, they can't change the plain words of the Quran.
Also, the phrase rendered as “before it/him” in the original Arabic is “ بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ/bayna yadayhi”, which literally means “between his hands”, but idiomatically means “before him” in a spatial sense like “in front of him” or “in his presence”. The English word “before” can also be used this way. Thus 3:3-4 is saying the previous bodies of revelation being confirmed are “before” the Quran spatially or in its presence.
I didn't want to answer this Kyle, because there is a mistake from the very beginning, but since you are answering me in full and wasting your time, I will do this as well to explain to you
1. The Quran does not mention the Bible. And let's not even start with this, but which version of the Bible exactly? Protestant, Orthodox? Catholic? They all have a different number of canonical books.
2. Since when did you drag the Old Testament and the New Testament into the previous scriptures? Since when did you drag in books whose authors are not even known and drag them into the previous scriptures that the Quran talks about. Isa (peace be upon him) had only one gospel, which of them are you talking about? Also, the Quran talks about the Torah of Moses, and not about the one that you have today. The author of which, as Jerome of Stridnos says, is not Moses, but Ezdra.
Where does the Quran even once talk about the letters of Paul or others like him?
,,The Quran says that the Old and New cannot be distorted,,
In the Quran itself there are many accusations against the Jews and Christians that they distorted their scriptures. For example, 2 surah 75 verse. In the same surah in verse 79 Allah repeats: Woe to those who write the Scripture with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to buy with it a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written! Woe to them for what they earn!
In just one verse there are 4 indications that the distortions were WRITTEN.
So what gospel did Jesus have? Unless there were 4 canonical ones, and about 100 non-canonical ones. What gospel is the Quran talking about?
“He has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what came before. And He sent down the Torah and the Gospel. Before that, as a guidance for mankind. And He sent down the Qur’an.” 3:3–4
This verse simply refutes your claim kayl. They were the true guidance before the Qur’an (and now they are not even there).
,,It is clear enough that the Qur’an states that Allah gave the Torah and the Gospel — the Old and New Testaments.,,
Where does it say new and old testaments? Lol.
“And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.” 6:115,,
This is not even about the scripture, but simply about a promise, you should have read the context.
,,And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words.” 18:27
That's right, the Quran cannot be changed. Why are you adding the Bible to this?
All the following verses are simply about Allah's promise to help his people.
There is no mention of the Bible in the Quran at all, only the Taurat, Injil and Zabur.
3. And your scripture itself does not claim that the Bible is inspired by God. Why?
Paul in his second letter to Timothy says, "All scripture is inspired by God," But he says these words in relation to the Old Testament, because at that time the New Testament did not even exist. The Epistle of James, Jude, and the Revelation of John the Theologian were written after Paul.
“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9, NIV),,
In that case, you must deify Moses, since God says to him - I will make you a god for Pharaoh, and I will appoint Aaron as a prophet.
Then deify the judges in the books of Psalms: God stands in the divine assembly; he pronounces judgment among the gods (82:1)
And you can also deify Satan, who in the Bible is called a god and the owner of this world (I think in the letter to the Corinthians).
,,ALL the fullness of God lives in Jesus — which means that Jesus is God. There is no part of the fullness of God that is missing from Jesus. All the fullness of God — everything that it means to be God, everything that God is — lives in Jesus in bodily form.,,
In that case, Satan, Moses and the judges are also gods.
And no, Jesus himself and his apostles did not even think that he was God, that came later
“These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, ESV),
And where is Jesus called God here? According to the Bible, all the people of Israel are the sons of God, David and the angels are also the sons of God
Hello Shamil, thanks for responding.
My friend, this will be a good conversation. It has to be in multiple parts, because it's longer than is allowed for one comment.
You said:
"I didn't want to answer this Kyle, because there is a mistake from the very beginning, but since you are answering me in full and wasting your time, I will do this as well to explain to you."
This is no waste, my friend. Let's hash this all out.
This kind of stuff is worth taking the time to talk about well.
You said:
"1. The Quran does not mention the Bible. And let's not even start with this, but which version of the Bible exactly? Protestant, Orthodox? Catholic? They all have a different number of canonical books."
First: all of those Bibles have the same core 66 books -- 39 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New. They all agree on these. The Catholic and Orthodox add a few, but they don't take away any of the core 66.
As for whether the Quran mentions the Bible, you'll see that clearly in response to your next point.
You said:
"2. Since when did you drag the Old Testament and the New Testament into the previous scriptures? Since when did you drag in books whose authors are not even known and drag them into the previous scriptures that the Quran talks about. Isa (peace be upon him) had only one gospel, which of them are you talking about? Also, the Quran talks about the Torah of Moses, and not about the one that you have today."
The Quran directly mentions the previous Scriptures. It states openly that Allah gave the previous Scriptures. It says so right here:
“He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Qur'an.” 3:3–4
Do you see it, my friend?
Quran 3:3-4 states that the same Allah who revealed the Quran also revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
Then:
“And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.” 5:46
Do you see the connection?
Allah gave Jesus the Gospel, which confirms that Torah that preceded it.
We have the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It's right there in the New Testament.
Mark, the second book in the New Testament, begins this way:
"The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
This is the Gospel of Jesus. It's right there in black and white, my friend.
Because of 5:46, we can prove that this Gospel confirms the Torah in the Old Testament we have. We can prove it's this Torah we read today, not some lost version.
How can we? Because Jesus quotes the Torah constantly. In the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which the New Testament contains, Jesus quotes from and references the Torah we have in our Old Testament consistently. We can therefore prove that this is the Torah that Jesus knew.
Muslims like to invent ideas like a lost Torah or a Gospel that no one recorded, but such things don't fit the evidence, my friend.
You said:
"The author of which, as Jerome of Stridnos says, is not Moses, but Ezdra."
That story comes from a few hundred years AFTER the time of Jesus. Porphyry of Tyre claimed that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the Torah when he invaded in 586 BC, and Ezra the Scribe reconstructed it a century later.
The problem is that there is no evidence of this. At all. It's a made-up story.
Further, like I said above, we can prove that the Torah Jesus knew in the first century is the same Torah we read today. It contains the same verses, the same teachings, the same narratives.
We haven't lost anything.
You said:
"Where does the Quran even once talk about the letters of Paul or others like him?"
Right here, my friend:
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee SUPERIOR to those who reject faith, TO THE DAY OF RESURRECTION: Then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute." S. 3:55
O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: as said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the Disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved: But We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, AND THEY BECAME THE ONES THAT PREVAILED. S. 61:14
Who are the ones that prevailed? Paul and the others who came after him.
The Quran states that Allah will only allow Jesus' true followers to prevail, to be superior to false followers, or those who would distort the message.
Therefore, if you believe the Quran, you have to accept that Paul is a true follower of Jesus, and that Paul prevailed because Allah made him superior to those who would distort the message.
My friend, I'm only quoting your own Quran back to you. Unfortunately, a lot of imams do not teach the truth about their own book!
You said:
,,The Quran says that the Old and New cannot be distorted,,
In the Quran itself there are many accusations against the Jews and Christians that they distorted their scriptures. For example, 2 surah 75 verse. In the same surah in verse 79 Allah repeats: "Woe to those who write the Scripture with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to buy with it a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written! Woe to them for what they earn! In just one verse there are 4 indications that the distortions were WRITTEN."
My friend, look back at what you quoted. It doesn't say anything about the Old or New Testaments being corrupted.
Rather, it critiques those who write down something with their own hands and call it Scripture. I agree: woe to those who write something new down with their own hands and call it Scripture! That's a terrible idea.
But there's no mention of the Torah or Gospel in this verse. It doesn't say anything about corrupting what was already written down.
You said:
"So what gospel did Jesus have? Unless there were 4 canonical ones, and about 100 non-canonical ones. What gospel is the Quran talking about?"
The four canonical Gospels are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Do you know why they are the only canonical ones?
For starters, simply compare them to all the other supposed gospels. You'll find that there isn't another one that comes anywhere close to their length. All the others are tiny, a few chapters at most, and don't come anywhere near the robustness of the Four.
Further, the canonical four are the earliest. The first. All the others came later, a generation or more after the first four were written.
Tatian wrote the Diatessaron in the 150's. The Diatessaron combined the Gospels into one account. He only included Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Why? Because they were already acknowledged as the only canonical ones, and many of the false gospels hadn't even been written yet.
You said:
“He has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what came before. And He sent down the Torah and the Gospel. Before that, as a guidance for mankind. And He sent down the Qur’an.” 3:3–4
This verse simply refutes your claim kayl. They were the true guidance before the Qur’an (and now they are not even there)."
Not so, my friend. It's all in one word: CONFIRMING.
The Quran CONFIRMS that which came before, which means that Mohammed had accurate copies of what came before, such that he could see the Quran confirming them.
And guess what?
We know what Torah and Gospel Mohammed had.
We have complete copies of the Old and New Testaments from centuries before Mohammed's time. We can prove that the Bible he knew has not been corrupted since his time.
If the Bible had already been corrupted by Mohammed's time, then the Quran couldn't confirm it. Why? Because it would be confirming a corruption!
The only way the Quran can confirm anything is if Mohammed had accurate copies of the Bible which could be confirmed.
Otherwise, the Quran would have to correct the Bible. But that's not what the verse says. It never talks of the Quran correcting a corrupted Bible. Rather, it talks of the Quran confirming an accurate Bible.
You said:
",,It is clear enough that the Qur’an states that Allah gave the Torah and the Gospel — the Old and New Testaments.,,
Where does it say new and old testaments? Lol."
It says it in the words "Torah" and "Gospel."
The Torah is recorded in the Old Testament. The Gospel is recorded in the New.
You said:
“And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.” 6:115,,
This is not even about the scripture, but simply about a promise, you should have read the context."
Are you suggesting that the Scriptures are NOT Allah's words?
Because that's what would have to be true, if your words are true.
If this verse isn't about the Scriptures, then you're denying that Allah gave the Quran. You're saying the Quran is not the words of Allah. You can't be a Muslim and believe such a thing!
Rather, this verse states that no one can alter Allah's words, wherever Allah's words are. The Quran claims in multiple places that the Quran, Torah, and Gospel are Allah's words -- they come from Allah. Therefore, this verse means they cannot be altered.
It's all in your own book, my friend.
Part 2 coming:
Part 2:
You said:
",And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words.” 18:27
That's right, the Quran cannot be changed. Why are you adding the Bible to this?"
The verse doesn't say the Quran cannot be changed.
The verse says that Allah's words cannot be changed.
And the Quran says the Torah and Gospel are the words of Allah.
That's why I add the Bible to this: because the Quran adds the Bible to this.
You said:
"All the following verses are simply about Allah's promise to help his people.
There is no mention of the Bible in the Quran at all, only the Taurat, Injil and Zabur."
The Taurat (Torah) and Injil (Gospel) ARE the Bible, my friend.
You said:
"3. And your scripture itself does not claim that the Bible is inspired by God. Why?
Paul in his second letter to Timothy says, "All scripture is inspired by God," But he says these words in relation to the Old Testament, because at that time the New Testament did not even exist. The Epistle of James, Jude, and the Revelation of John the Theologian were written after Paul."
My friend, read what Paul wrote!
He didn't say "all previous Scripture is inspired by God."
He said "ALL Scripture is inspired by God."
That includes the Scripture he was actively writing by saying this, as well as the books that would come next.
Paul never limits this statement to only the Old Testament.
You said:
“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9, NIV),,
In that case, you must deify Moses, since God says to him - I will make you a god for Pharaoh, and I will appoint Aaron as a prophet."
My friend, those two verses don't even connect.
Moses never has all the fullness of God dwelling in him. Only Jesus does.
God never says that He will make Moses into God. He says "a god for Pharoah," not for anyone else.
The OT word for God, "El," often refers to people in positions of authority over others, in this case.
Jesus alone has all the fullness of God dwelling in Him, which means Jesus is God.
My friend, whose body has all the fullness of Shamil dwelling in it? Your body. Your body is you, because all the fullness of you dwells in your body.
All the fullness of God dwells in Jesus. Jesus is God, because all the fullness of God dwells in Jesus.
You said:
"Then deify the judges in the books of Psalms: God stands in the divine assembly; he pronounces judgment among the gods (82:1)
And you can also deify Satan, who in the Bible is called a god and the owner of this world (I think in the letter to the Corinthians)."
Again, the Bible will often refer to a person or angelic being in a position of authority as "a god," a lower-case god, simply to indicate their position of authority. It mimics the real God who stands in authority over everyone.
But no one has the fullness of God dwelling in Him except for Jesus.
Because only Jesus is God.
You said:
",,ALL the fullness of God lives in Jesus — which means that Jesus is God. There is no part of the fullness of God that is missing from Jesus. All the fullness of God — everything that it means to be God, everything that God is — lives in Jesus in bodily form.,,
In that case, Satan, Moses and the judges are also gods."
No, they aren't, because they are never said to have the fullness of God dwelling in them.
You said:
"And no, Jesus himself and his apostles did not even think that he was God, that came later
“These are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, ESV),"
And where is Jesus called God here?"
The phrase "the Son of God" means that Jesus is God.
How? In the same way that the son of the king is the king.
Who is the future king? The son of the king. To be the son of the king is to be qualified to be king.
In Israel, the son of the king and the king were kings at the same time. David and Solomon were both considered the king even before David died. To be the son of the king was to be the king.
To be the Son of God is to be God.
You said:
"According to the Bible, all the people of Israel are the sons of God, David and the angels are also the sons of God"
These are different phrases, my friend.
No one else is ever called the Son of God except for Jesus.
For a group to be "the sons of God" isn't the same thing. It's the difference between a king calling a crowd of people "My children" and the king saying of the crown prince "This is my Son." Even though he's using offspring words in each, they're very different phrases, meaning very different things.
Only Jesus is the Son of God.
Because being the Son of God is being God.
And again, being "the Son of God" does not mean Jesus is the OFFSPRING of God. Jesus was not sired by God.
Remember: ALL the fullness of God dwells in Jesus.
If Jesus was a normal child, He'd have half of his father's DNA and half of his mother's. He would be half his father, half his mother.
But Jesus isn't half God, half human.
ALL the fullness of God dwells in Jesus -- not half.
Jesus is fully God. ALL the fullness of God dwells in Jesus, because Jesus is God.
----
My friend, I appreciate this conversation.
I ask you to go back and read every point seriously.
There is no topic more important.
My answer: American Christian scholar and Arabist Sidney Griffith argues that the "Gospel" [ḷnǧyl] mentioned in the Qur'an is the name of a divine revelation, not a written Gospel from the biblical canon.
"For while the Qur'an, following both contemporary Jewish and Christian views, recognizes the Torah as a scripture revealed by God to Moses, "We have written for him in Tablets everything" (al-Araaf 145) - the Gospel that the Qur'an affirms is not the Gospel as it was recognized by Christians at the time of the Qur'an.
The Qur'an here most likely follows the pattern of its own prophetology, and speaks of the Gospel as the scripture that God gave to Jesus: And We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light, confirming what had been sent down before in the Taurat (Torah) (Al-Ma'idah 46; Al-Hadid 27).
• Sidney H. Griffith «The Bible in Arabic: The Scriptures of the "People of the Book" in the Language of Islam»
2) On the distortion of the text of the Torah by the Jews in the Quran and the words of the Companion and Tabi'in.
In the Quran, the Lord says:
"Because they broke the covenant, We cursed them and hardened their hearts. They distort the words, changing their places, and have forgotten some of what they were taught. You will always find them betraying, except for a few of them. So forgive them and be generous. Indeed, Allah loves those who do good."
فَبِمَا نَقْضِهِم مِّيثَاقَهُمْ لَعَنَّاهُمْ وَجَعَلْنَا قُلُوب َهُمْ قَاسِيَةً يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَن مَّوَاضِعِهِ بِهِ وَلَا تَزَالُ تَطَّلِعُ لَى خَائِنَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا مِّنْهُمْ فَاعْفُ Qur'an 5:13.
In the tafsir of Ibn Abi Hatim (240 g/h. - 327 g/h.) it is given: : " : " اليهود التوراة
Hajjaj ibn Hamza told us, from Shabab from Warqa, from Ibn Abi Najih from Mujahid, his statement: “They distort words by changing their places”: the Jews change the Torah.
All rights reserved. ن أبي طلحة ، عن ابن عباس « يحرفون الكلم عن مواضعه » يعني : يحرفون حدود الله في التوراة
My father told me, Abu Salih Katib Al-Layth told us, Muawiya bin Salih told me from Ali ibn Abu Talha, from Ibn Abbas: “They distort words by changing their places,” which means: they distort the rulings of Allah in the Torah.
See "Tafsir Ibn Abi Hatim", (1/965).
2) These verses only speak about the Quran.
The proof of the distortion of the Injil is the words of the Most High: “And We took a covenant from those who said, ‘We are Christians.’ They forgot some of what they were reminded of, so We stirred up among them enmity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah will inform them of what they used to do. O People of the Book! There has come to you Our Messenger, making clear to you much of what you were concealing of the Book, and he forbears from much of it” (Al-Ma’idah, 5:14-15).
In interpreting the last verse, some of the commentators of the Quran said: “He makes clear what they have changed, distorted, misinterpreted, or invented, and he conceals much of what they have changed, because there is no benefit in making it clear” (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, 3/63).
These verses indicate that the Taurat and Injeel have been corrupted and changed, and therefore Muslim scholars are unanimous in this regard.
Evidence that the Quran has not been corrupted and is protected by Allah.
The Great Quran is protected from the corruption and changes that previous scriptures have undergone. Allah has revealed that He cares for it and protects it from corruption: “Indeed, We have sent down the Reminder, and We will guard it” (al-Hijr, 15:9). At-Tabari, commenting on this verse, said: “Allah said that He guards the Quran from having anything added to it that does not belong to it, or from having some of its injunctions, restrictions, and commands removed” (Tafsir Ibn Jarir, 14/7).
In other verses, Allah also informed us about the perfection of the Quran, that the verses of the Quran are explained in detail and have nothing to do with lies. The Almighty Lord said: “No lie will come upon it from before or behind. It has been sent down from the Wise, the Praiseworthy” (Fussilat, 41:42); “Alif. Lam. Ra. This is a Book whose verses have been clearly explained, then explained by the Wise, the Knowing” (Hud, 11:1); “Do not move your tongue in repeating it (the Quran) to hasten your memorization. We must collect it and recite it” (al-Qiyamah, 75:16-17).
From these verses, it is clear that from the moment the Quran was sent down, Allah has been guarding its text and meaning in the most perfect manner, and even when Allah raises it to Himself, the Quranic revelations will be free from any distortion or change. For many centuries, in different countries, adults and children have been reading it in the same form in which Allah sent it down to His Messenger, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.
Muslim theologians have pointed out that amazing, barely noticeable subtlety that allows us to find an answer to the question of why the Taurat could be distorted, but this is impossible with the Quran. Abu Amr ad-Dani narrated from Abu al-Hasan al-Muntab: “I was once with the qadi Abu Ishaq Ismail bin Ishaq, and he was asked: “Why could the Taurat be distorted, but the Quran cannot?” The qadi answered: “The Great and Mighty Allah said about the followers of the Taurat: “The rabbis and the chief priests did the same in accordance with what they were entrusted to preserve from the Book of Allah” (al-Maida, 5:44). The protection of the Taurat was entrusted to them and its distortion became possible. And it is said about the Quran: “Verily, We have sent down the Reminder and We are the guardians thereof” (al-Hijr, 15:9). Therefore, its distortion is impossible.” Then I went to Abu Abdullah al-Muhamili and told him this story, to which he said: “I have never heard a more beautiful answer.”
3) Having retroactively attributed their prejudices to scripture, Christians have begun to appeal to scripture, retroactively, attempting to justify their terms with different words from scripture that are somehow similar to their terminology, thereby attempting to unite their inventions, which they call tradition, with what they call scripture. One such attempt is to unite the epistles of Paul, with John 1:1, that Paul supposedly believed in two natures and that the epistles agree with John, when, at the time Paul wrote his texts, none of the four (gospels) had been written, and Paul, as we know, relied on his own revelation. According to D. Wallace, Paul was a primitive binitarian and subordinationist.
The Gospel of John differs in content from the other three, the so-called "synoptic" Gospels of the New Testament. And we do not know the real author of this Gospel
Hello Shamil! I'm sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you. This is Part 1 of 2.
You said:
"My answer: American Christian scholar and Arabist Sidney Griffith argues that the "Gospel" [ḷnǧyl] mentioned in the Qur'an is the name of a divine revelation, not a written Gospel from the biblical canon."
He's wrong.
"The Gospel of Jesus Christ" is right there in the first line of Mark.
We don't have to appeal to some nebulous revelation when we have it in writing right in front of our eyes.
You said:
"For while the Qur'an, following both contemporary Jewish and Christian views, recognizes the Torah as a scripture revealed by God to Moses, "We have written for him in Tablets everything" (al-Araaf 145) - the Gospel that the Qur'an affirms is not the Gospel as it was recognized by Christians at the time of the Qur'an."
Muslims keep trying to say that the Gospel the Quran refers to is not the Gospel in the Bible, but they can never prove it.
I understand why Muslims want to deny this. They don't want to see the Quran affirming the Gospels in the Bible. They don't want to admit that the Quran states the Bible cannot be corrupted.
Yet that's the straight-forward view of the simple Quranic passages.
You said:
"The Qur'an here most likely follows the pattern of its own prophetology, and speaks of the Gospel as the scripture that God gave to Jesus: And We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light, confirming what had been sent down before in the Taurat (Torah) (Al-Ma'idah 46; Al-Hadid 27)."
And what is that Gospel? Where do we find it?
Recorded in the four Gospels in the Bible, especially the one that begins by saying "The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ..." (Mark 1:1).
You said:
"2) On the distortion of the text of the Torah by the Jews in the Quran and the words of the Companion and Tabi'in. In the Quran, the Lord says:
"Because they broke the covenant, We cursed them and hardened their hearts. They distort the words, changing their places, and have forgotten some of what they were taught. You will always find them betraying, except for a few of them. So forgive them and be generous. Indeed, Allah loves those who do good."
Hajjaj ibn Hamza told us, from Shabab from Warqa, from Ibn Abi Najih from Mujahid, his statement: “They distort words by changing their places”: the Jews change the Torah."
You just defeated yourself, my friend.
Ask yourself: how would anyone know that the Jews had changed anything?
There's only one way to know: you have an uncorrupted copy to compare it to.
The passage even admits that "a few of them" are not corrupting anything.
Further, do you seriously think the Jews were able to track down every single copy of the Torah in existence and corrupt all of them? How could they?
The Christians possessed thousands of copies of the Torah that the Jews did not have access to. They Christians knew and loved these Scriptures. They wouldn't let them be corrupted.
There's no possible way anyone could have corrupted every single copy of the Torah, my friend.
You said:
"My father told me, Abu Salih Katib Al-Layth told us, Muawiya bin Salih told me from Ali ibn Abu Talha, from Ibn Abbas: “They distort words by changing their places,” which means: they distort the rulings of Allah in the Torah."
Again, the only way you'd know that they distorted anything was that you have a non-distorted copy to compare them to.
This very passage is proof that un-corrupted copies of the Torah existed, such that they could see how people tried to distort the words in other copies.
You said:
"2) These verses only speak about the Quran."
The Quran itself states that they apply to the Torah and Injeel/Gospel.
Do you disagree with Allah?
You said:
"The proof of the distortion of the Injil is the words of the Most High: “And We took a covenant from those who said, ‘We are Christians.’ They forgot some of what they were reminded of, so We stirred up among them enmity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah will inform them of what they used to do. O People of the Book! There has come to you Our Messenger, making clear to you much of what you were concealing of the Book, and he forbears from much of it” (Al-Ma’idah, 5:14-15)."
Where does this say anything about distortion?
It mentions people concealing things that were in the Book, but no mention of them distorting or changing anything.
Neither does it claim the Book itself was altered.
You said:
"In interpreting the last verse, some of the commentators of the Quran said: “He makes clear what they have changed, distorted, misinterpreted, or invented, and he conceals much of what they have changed, because there is no benefit in making it clear” (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, 3/63)."
Commentators aren't the Quran.
The Quran itself never says the Torah or Injeel were corrupted.
Part 2 of 2.
You said:
"These verses indicate that the Taurat and Injeel have been corrupted and changed, and therefore Muslim scholars are unanimous in this regard."
These verses don't say anything like that, my friend.
You said:
"Evidence that the Quran has not been corrupted and is protected by Allah.
The Great Quran is protected from the corruption and changes that previous scriptures have undergone. Allah has revealed that He cares for it and protects it from corruption: “Indeed, We have sent down the Reminder, and We will guard it” (al-Hijr, 15:9). At-Tabari, commenting on this verse, said: “Allah said that He guards the Quran from having anything added to it that does not belong to it, or from having some of its injunctions, restrictions, and commands removed” (Tafsir Ibn Jarir, 14/7)."
This is false.
Verses have been removed from the Quran. The Quran that you have today is not the shape it has always had.
Consider: "A 10th-century manuscript known as BNF Arabe 370a has several places where the original text has been erased and replaced with the text matching the modern reading in different handwriting. The interesting thing is that, in each of these places, the modern text is too long to fit into the erased space and must be crammed in with smaller print.13 This seems to indicate that the manuscript originally preserved a text that was in several places shorter (and therefore obviously different) than the text we have today. These kinds of examples show that, while the overall text of the Quran appears to be rather stable for most of its history, in the past there were certainly readings substantively different than what we have today." https://carm.org/islam/have-there-been-changes-to-the-quran/
You said:
"From these verses, it is clear that from the moment the Quran was sent down, Allah has been guarding its text and meaning in the most perfect manner, and even when Allah raises it to Himself, the Quranic revelations will be free from any distortion or change. For many centuries, in different countries, adults and children have been reading it in the same form in which Allah sent it down to His Messenger, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him."
My friend, the Quran has been changed.
Consider this example:
The “Great Paris Manuscript,” one of the earliest manuscripts of the Quran, has a small but rather significant variant in Surah 3:158. The standard text today reads, “And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! It is unto Allah that ye are brought together.” However, in the Paris Manuscript, there is a single additional letter not found in the modern text that reverses the meaning entirely. The verse then reads that if you die or are slain, you are NOT brought together unto Allah. https://carm.org/islam/have-there-been-changes-to-the-quran/
You said:
"Muslim theologians have pointed out that amazing, barely noticeable subtlety that allows us to find an answer to the question of why the Taurat could be distorted, but this is impossible with the Quran. Abu Amr ad-Dani narrated from Abu al-Hasan al-Muntab: “I was once with the qadi Abu Ishaq Ismail bin Ishaq, and he was asked: “Why could the Taurat be distorted, but the Quran cannot?” The qadi answered: “The Great and Mighty Allah said about the followers of the Taurat: “The rabbis and the chief priests did the same in accordance with what they were entrusted to preserve from the Book of Allah” (al-Maida, 5:44). The protection of the Taurat was entrusted to them and its distortion became possible. And it is said about the Quran: “Verily, We have sent down the Reminder and We are the guardians thereof” (al-Hijr, 15:9). Therefore, its distortion is impossible.” Then I went to Abu Abdullah al-Muhamili and told him this story, to which he said: “I have never heard a more beautiful answer.”
This means nothing, next to the Quran itself.
It's the Quran that states the Torah and Injeel/Gospel are from Allah and cannot be changed.
No matter how many scholars you can find who want to reach a different conclusion, they can't change the words of the Quran, here.
You said:
"3) Having retroactively attributed their prejudices to scripture, Christians have begun to appeal to scripture, retroactively, attempting to justify their terms with different words from scripture that are somehow similar to their terminology, thereby attempting to unite their inventions, which they call tradition, with what they call scripture. One such attempt is to unite the epistles of Paul, with John 1:1, that Paul supposedly believed in two natures and that the epistles agree with John, when, at the time Paul wrote his texts, none of the four (gospels) had been written, and Paul, as we know, relied on his own revelation. According to D. Wallace, Paul was a primitive binitarian and subordinationist."
I can't find any such quote by Wallace.
Paul agrees with the Gospels in theology. Despite many claims by Muslim scholars to try to separate the two, every major piece of theology Paul teaches is present in the Gospels.
Further, Paul quotes the Gospel of Luke, and appeals to prophecies written only in Matthew and Mark. Paul knew the Gospels.
You said:
"The Gospel of John differs in content from the other three, the so-called "synoptic" Gospels of the New Testament. And we do not know the real author of this Gospel"
Sure we do.
Papias was a Bishop of Hieropolis at the end of the first century and beginning of the second. He knew John the Apostle personally. The Anti-Marcionite Prologue to John records that Papias served as John's scribe. John dictated and Papias wrote down his words as the Gospel of John.
It says: "“The Gospel of John was revealed and given to the churches by John while still in the body, just as Papias of Hieropolis, the close disciple of John, related in the exoterics, that is, in the last five books. Indeed he wrote down the gospel, while John was dictating carefully” (translation by De Bruyne)"
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My friend, the facts are simple.
The Quran states that the Torah and Injeel/Gospel are from Allah and cannot be changed.
No matter how many scholars you find who want to disagree with that, they can't change the plain words of the Quran.
Also, the phrase rendered as “before it/him” in the original Arabic is “ بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ/bayna yadayhi”, which literally means “between his hands”, but idiomatically means “before him” in a spatial sense like “in front of him” or “in his presence”. The English word “before” can also be used this way. Thus 3:3-4 is saying the previous bodies of revelation being confirmed are “before” the Quran spatially or in its presence.