Monday’s article continues to spark discussion, as atheists continue to react to the idea that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is not a credible attack against the idea of God.
do you see my comment kyle? Because I don't know if this site works properly. Science has long explained how life developed on Earth over billions of years, and confirms it with evidence of evolution - from simple organisms to complex ones. including man.
However, many people still believe that the world was created by God in a few days
You claim that the chain of causes must necessarily end at the "infinite and uncaused," but why? We can continue it to infinity without ever coming to a "first" element. Within our universe, we do not observe anything "infinite and uncaused." Everything that exists arose as a result of the interaction of initial conditions and the laws of physics. After the Big Bang, the development of the universe proceeds naturally without any visible intervention from the outside. If we are talking about the causes of the Big Bang, are we really obliged to assume intervention? Why can't this process be part of larger processes, for example, the cycles of birth and death of universes?
The quantum fluctuations you mentioned are capable of creating matter. For example, in the process of Hawking radiation, virtual particles that appear near the event horizon of a black hole can become real: one particle falls beyond the event horizon of the black hole, and another is "released," becoming real.
Your statement that "everything was created by God" is not supported by any arguments. Where did it come from? What is its basis? On the contrary, the development of nature and living organisms is well explained by the laws of physics and the theory of evolution. No one "sculpted" a man from clay, just as no one created a woman from his rib.
According to current models, the Universe can be infinite. Its flat topology allows this, therefore, both matter and energy in it can also be infinite.
Then the pasta monster is also a God who has the same qualities as the God of the bible, but he decided to create a body for himself, just like the biblical God. This means that the pasta monster is a true God.
the latest theory of a steady state universe emerged in the 20th century, is considered obsolete and is not accepted by the scientific community. Big Bang Theory, String Theory, Inflationary Model, Steady State Theory All modern science is built on infinity, even mathematics where natural and fractional numbers are infinite, or fractals that can be increased to infinity. The singularity of black holes, which has infinite density, the many-worlds interpretation in quantum mechanics, eternity in philosophy. Believe in your god, but do not fool the people, there are so many beautiful things in the world to waste your life on a martyr who was crucified thousands of years ago
Hello Lilithun, thanks for taking the time to respond.
You said: “Stop say b******* and ignoring me”
My friend, this is the busiest time of year for me. I have four young children. The oldest two are home from school and the youngest two require a lot of attention (I’m currently typing while I’m feeding my daughter in her high chair). Finding time for debates is challenging, at least until things quiet down again in the new year.
You said: “the latest theory of a steady state universe emerged in the 20th century, is considered obsolete and is not accepted by the scientific community. Big Bang Theory, String Theory, Inflationary Model, Steady State Theory”
Correct — the steady state theory is not compatible with the universe with observe. Not the least being incompatible with entropy.
You said: “All modern science is built on infinity, even mathematics where natural and fractional numbers are infinite, or fractals that can be increased to infinity. The singularity of black holes, which has infinite density, the many-worlds interpretation in quantum mechanics, eternity in philosophy.”
None of these involve an actual infinite in the known universe.
A black hole is not “infinitely dense.” We might use the term, but we do not mean that it is dense with no finite limits. Quite the opposite. If we knew the full history of the universe and the full history of that black hole, we could tell you exactly how much mass has entered it, and say some very definite, finite things about its density in relation to its size and age.
Mathematics finds infinity to be a useful concept, but only that — a concept.
Mathematics can never breach actual infinity. As I gave in my example of calculating the digits of pi, you take something that’s infinite in concept, but you can never actually reach that infinity in our universe.
We are so bound by finite limits in every aspect of our existence that we can never calculate an infinite number of digits for pi. The same is true of fractals, and everywhere else infinity is used.
Infinity works as a concept, but never as a reality we could experience.
That’s why I challenged you to produce something actually infinite in real existence, something you can observe and measure that has no finite limits. Such a thing doesn’t exist.
Our universe is finite, as a whole and in all of its parts.
You said: “Believe in your god, but do not fool the people, there are so many beautiful things in the world to waste your life on a martyr who was crucified thousands of years ago”
I follow the evidence.
If the evidence points toward the necessary existence of an infinite, all-powerful Creator (and it does), then I am fooling no one in following the evidence and believing what it says.
There are indeed a great many beautiful things in this world to enjoy.
One of the greatest is the love of a Creator who takes on flesh to die in our place, so that we could be with Him forever.
🤣🤣🤣🤣What a liar you are Kyle. You are so pathetically trying to back away from your own assertions without providing any evidence. Your words refer only to your own dreams about the "infinity of the universe" where are your references to the infinity of the universe? What studies of our universe indicate that it is finite? You deleted my posts for the same reason - you have no evidence and no references, you also only dropped me one link from a fringe, not a scientist.
You said: "🤣🤣🤣🤣What a liar you are Kyle. You are so pathetically trying to back away from your own assertions without providing any evidence."
What am I supposed to be backing away from?
I maintain the same assertions I have from the start of these conversations.
You said: "Your words refer only to your own dreams about the "infinity of the universe" where are your references to the infinity of the universe? What studies of our universe indicate that it is finite?"
It looks like you've read my conversation with Alejandro, so you already know the answer to this.
Every measurement, every observation, everything we can directly examine about our universe is finite.
Every experiment we've ever run is finite. How do we know? Because we're not sitting in it right now. Every chemical reaction, every nuclear explosion, every experiment ever done has produced finite results. If they were infinite, we'd be inside of them. An infinite reaction/explosion would have no finite limits. It would encompass everything. Given that hasn't happened, we can say quite conclusively we've never witnessed an infinite reaction or explosion.
Further, we are so bound by finite limits in all dimensions of reality that we cannot escape them, no matter how hard we try.
Consider the digits of pi -- 3.14159 and so on. Theoretically, they are infinite -- non-repeating, never ending.
But this is only the case in theory. In actual reality, we can never experience pi's digits as being infinite.
Take every atom of the universe and make it into a supercomputer, faster than any we've developed. Network them all together. Have them start calculating the digits of pi. Let them run for a trillion years. Then let them run for another trillion squared years. Then a trillion trillion trillion years more.
They'll have calculated a huge number of pi's digits -- but it will still be a finite number of digits, just as finite as the number 1. You could have the computers turn around and count their way back through all the digits they've calculated, and they'll arrive back at the start.
We can't escape our finite limits, no matter how hard we try.
There simply is no observable or measurable infinite quality in our universe or about our universe. Everything we can ever study or measure or observe is entirely, completely finite.
If you disagree, simply produce something measurably, observably infinite. If you can't do that, consider why.
You said: "You deleted my posts for the same reason - you have no evidence and no references, you also only dropped me one link from a fringe, not a scientist."
I deleted your posts because you lied.
You kept claiming they were your words, but they aren't. You copied them from Reddit, where you were also copying my posts to get someone to write a response to them.
This wouldn't have been so bad if you hadn't kept lying about them, even so far as doubling down on your lies when you were called out on them.
Yet even with this, I'm still quite willing to discuss these matters. As long as you are willing to think about the matters yourself and write your own comments, I'm happy to continue the discussion. There are several good matters in those threads worthy of further discussion.
If you're willing to engage your mind, consider the situation, and write your own responses, we can continue the conversation.
the latest theory of a steady state universe emerged in the 20th century, is considered obsolete and is not accepted by the scientific community. Big Bang Theory, String Theory, Inflationary Model, Steady State Theory All modern science is built on infinity, even mathematics where natural and fractional numbers are infinite, or fractals that can be increased to infinity. The singularity of black holes, which has infinite density, the many-worlds interpretation in quantum mechanics, eternity in philosophy. Believe in your god, but do not fool the people, there are so many beautiful things in the world to waste your life on a martyr who was crucified thousands of years ago
This is the topic on which I would like to start a dialogue. I have encountered the cosmological argument for the existence of god several times, but it is more likely to be attributed to the "god of the gaps". The first thing I want to start with is the question, where did you get the information that the universe is finite? You can simply go to Google and ask if the universe is finite and the answer will be either
a) universe is infinite.
b) We do not know whether it is finite or not.
Give a link to the works of scientists and physicists who claim that the universe and everything in it is finite. Christians making this argument are simply using philosophy, not real evidence. And the second claim is where did you get the idea that this is supposed to be your god in the first place?
Why can't it be a plurality of gods who have the same characteristics as the Christian God, they have existed forever and were not created by anyone, and one day they decided together to create the universe and humans, and they will reveal themselves to humans in 200, 1000 or 100,000 years (never mind) try to disprove it, it's your own logic. The fact that, according to your opinion, the world was created by the Christian God - there is no basis.
Hello Alejandro, thanks for starting this dialogue.
The first challenge is easily met. Our universe is finite, as a whole and in all of its parts.
When Google tells you the universe is “infinite,” it doesn’t use that word to mean an actual infinity. An actual infinity has no limits. There is no beginning and no ending. There are no finite limits, no boundaries, no borders, nothing of the kind.
Contrarily, everything about our universe is bound by finite limits of time, space, matter, and energy. Our universe doesn’t have a single infinite property or characteristic about it.
Our universe began a finite amount of time ago. Our universe is expanding — a finite amount of galaxies increasing in a finite amount of distance from each other. Our universe has a finite amount of galaxies in it, a finite amount of stars, a finite amount of matter, a finite amount of energy.
Everything you can possibly study or measure about our universe is finite, in whole and in all of its parts.
We are so bound by finitude that even things that are potentially infinite can never actually become infinite in our finite universe. Take the digits in pi — 3.14159 and so on. Supposedly, these digits are supposed to go on for infinity. But they don’t. We can never experience that in our finite universe.
Take all the atoms in the universe and turn them into super computers. Network all the super computers together. Have them start calculating the digits in pi for 1 trillion years. They’ll reach an incredibly high number of digits — but it will still be a finite number of digits, just as finite as the number 1. You can have all these computers start counting backwards, and in another trillion years they’ll arrive back at the beginning.
There is nothing actually infinite about our universe.
Every time someone says something about our universe is infinite, they’re not using the word to mean an actual infinity. They might mean that it could be potentially infinite, or something along those lines.
As to the second — as to why I would say this is the Christian God being the Creator — this argument does not delineate between which God is the Creator. This argument is only intended to establish the necessity that there IS an infinite Creator.
Once that’s established, we can look to other arguments to identify which among all the potential claimants it actually is.
But even with the simplicity of this argument, we can already rule out many of the so-called deities from various cultures around the world. This Creator must, by logical necessity, be infinite. It must be uncaused. It must exist forever without being caused, such that it can pre-exist all finite things and cause them to come into existence.
Therefore, it cannot be any of the deities who began to exist. Many of the Greek and Roman deities in their pantheons began to exist, being created by their parent-gods. These are automatically ruled out, as they had to be caused to begin existing, and cannot therefore be the infinite, uncaused Creator God.
Kyle, why can't you just links to the scientists who say the universe is finite? Give me a link where physicists say the same thing. I only trust sources from reputable people in the field. I respect you as a Christian, but where is the scientific consensus on the finiteness of the universe? So you can't claim that your God created the universe? I'm talking about the fact that the universe could have been created by the same god, or by several deities who have the same qualities as Yahweh, and who together decided to create the universe (I'm just using my imagination). And you forgot about Hindu gods and Allah, they seem to have the same qualities
I can link you to scientists talking about this, but it’s absolutely unnecessary. The example I gave you about the digits in pi proves beyond a doubt how finite our universe is. Even on the potentially infinite things like the digits of pi, we can never cross over Into an actual infinity. We are completely and absolutely trapped in finite limits.
Five scientists give their answers to whether the universe is infinite. One says, maybe, to say yes, and to say no.
And their response is illustrate my point perfectly.
Even those who say the universe is infinite, admit that everything we can see, study, and measure is finite. They admit you cannot see anything infinite in our universe. They admit that the universe began a finite amount of time ago, 13.8 billion years. They admit that the observable universe is 46 billion light years across.
They acknowledge all of the finite limits of our universe, that everything about it is bound by finite limits of space, time, matter, and energy.
They can’t point to a single infinite property about our universe.
They discuss potentialities, what it might mean if our universe is flat, or what it might mean if our universe is curved, or what we might see if we could see further out. But all these are mere possibilities. Not anything actually measurable. Not anything actually in evidence.
And again, this particular argument is not meant to delineate which kind of God we’re talking about. It only proves that an infinite, uncaused creator God exists. Further arguments and evidence are necessary to refine which one we’re talking about.
Kyle, let's be honest. You used the first article you found on the internet, and it still states, by two experts, that the universe is infinite, with the idea that there is a multiverse. In science view universe was scrunched up to a single point. singularity. Due to a build up of pressure all the energy was released so fast that it exploded, Obviously it was burning hot. it cooled off and quarks came into existence which, shortly after formed the atomic molecules PNE (protons neutrons electrons) these atoms loved to smash, they smashed so much that they broke and rearranged themselves into simple elements; hydrogen and helium. eventually, they formed together, went through a billion year
And the cosmological argument implies not proves the existence of some sort of “cause” responsible for the existence of the universe, but it says precisely nothing with regard to what this “cause” is or even could be. The “cause” could be the universe itself, it could be natural processes operating within some sort of multiverse or other “meta” existence, etc. There’s no implication whatsoever that this “cause” is some sort of intelligent being of the sort associated with the gods of various religions, and certainly none that it is the specific God of the Christian Bible.
"Kyle, let's be honest. You used the first article you found on the internet"
Nope. I've researched this topic for almost a decade. I knew what kind of article I wanted to share, and shared that one.
You said:
"and it still states, by two experts, that the universe is infinite, with the idea that there is a multiverse."
Go back and read what I said, above.
Even those who say the universe is infinite cannot provide a single infinite quality or aspect to the universe. There is nothing that is measurable that is infinite. There is nothing that is provable as infinite.
They have guesswork and theories -- ways in which the universe might be infinite, or ways in which you can conceive of the universe so as to think that it could be infinite.
The multiverse idea is the same -- an idea, not a measurable or provable concept. There is no experiment or measurement that proves an infinite multiverse. It is an idea, a fun theory to play around with, but nothing observable or measurable.
Everything we can study and measure and observe is finite -- every single last bit.
You demonstrate this yourself, even as you try not to.
You said:
"In science view universe was scrunched up to a single point. singularity. Due to a build up of pressure all the energy was released so fast that it exploded,"
Everything you just described is finite, not infinite.
If it was infinite, it couldn't have a build up of pressure. Pressure only happens when a finite amount of something is compressed in a finite space.
Likewise, an explosion is finite -- a condensed amount of matter and energy that becomes less condensed.
Everything about what you said can only happen if everything involved is finite.
You continue:
"Obviously it was burning hot. it cooled off and quarks came into existence which, shortly after formed the atomic molecules PNE (protons neutrons electrons) these atoms loved to smash, they smashed so much that they broke and rearranged themselves into simple elements; hydrogen and helium. eventually, they formed together, went through a billion year."
Again, everything in this is finite.
Heating up and cooling off can only happen if the energy involved is finite. If the energy was infinite -- no limits -- it couldn't heat up or cool off. It would be constant, unlimited, unaffected by finite limits of space or time or matter.
Finite atoms smash a finite amount of times in a finite span of time making a finite amount of elements.
Again, every single thing you're saying is only possible if every bit of it is finite.
If you really believe the universe is infinite, then provide one single measurable, provable infinite quality of the universe. Not a potentiality, not a hypothetical eventuality, but something directly observable and measurable. It has to be genuinely infinite -- no finite limits of any kind.
If you can find that, I'll surrender.
If you can't, then ask yourself why you can't.
You said:
"And the cosmological argument implies not proves the existence of some sort of “cause” responsible for the existence of the universe, but it says precisely nothing with regard to what this “cause” is or even could be."
Of course it does.
It says that this cause has to be uncaused, itself. At the bottom of the chain of causality, there must be something uncaused -- something that exists without being caused to exist. It must exist perpetually, without beginning or end. This thing must exist, because if it didn't, nothing would pre-exist the first finite thing, such that it could cause the first finite thing to begin existing.
It also tells us that this cause is exceedingly powerful, far beyond anything we can replicate, because it can create an entire universe.
This cause must therefore be eternal and omnipotent -- two of the key qualities of the God of the Bible.
You said:
"The “cause” could be the universe itself, it could be natural processes operating within some sort of multiverse or other “meta” existence, etc."
It can't, actually.
This cause must be infinite. But there are no infinite properties to our universe. Our universe bears no signs of being infinite, but rather every aspect is entirely finite, as we covered above. Something finite that was caused to exist cannot be the infinite source that is uncaused.
You said:
"There’s no implication whatsoever that this “cause” is some sort of intelligent being of the sort associated with the gods of various religions, and certainly none that it is the specific God of the Christian Bible."
We can tell quite clearly this cause is eternal and omnipotent.
We can infer that this source is intelligent, and has the will to create a universe capable of sustaining life, because that's what it did.
Further arguments are necessary to establish that it is, in fact, the God of the Bible.
But again, we've already eliminated most conceptions of God from contention, because any deity that was caused to exist or whose power is limited, instead of omnipotent, cannot be this eternal, omnipotent Cause.
If you have been researching this for ten years, provide more specific arguments, articles, evidence from scientists, their consensus on the finiteness of the universe. In 10 years you should have found a lot of this material, or where did you research it? From what sources?
We do not know what is beyond our Universe. It may simply be another level of reality embedded in something larger. The nesting of systems does not require the intervention of a divine demiurge at all; it may be an infinite hierarchy of structures, one of which is our Universe. This hypothesis is no less logical and even more economical in terms of explanation. Here Occam takes out his Razor. If we can explain the existence of the Universe through the laws of physics, even if embedded in even more complex laws, then why drag in here the abstract concept of God, which does not give us anything new in understanding nature? We see that the laws of physics operate completely independently, without the need for any intelligent intervention. Why should we believe that there is something else beyond our Universe?
do you see my comment kyle? Because I don't know if this site works properly. Science has long explained how life developed on Earth over billions of years, and confirms it with evidence of evolution - from simple organisms to complex ones. including man.
However, many people still believe that the world was created by God in a few days
You claim that the chain of causes must necessarily end at the "infinite and uncaused," but why? We can continue it to infinity without ever coming to a "first" element. Within our universe, we do not observe anything "infinite and uncaused." Everything that exists arose as a result of the interaction of initial conditions and the laws of physics. After the Big Bang, the development of the universe proceeds naturally without any visible intervention from the outside. If we are talking about the causes of the Big Bang, are we really obliged to assume intervention? Why can't this process be part of larger processes, for example, the cycles of birth and death of universes?
The quantum fluctuations you mentioned are capable of creating matter. For example, in the process of Hawking radiation, virtual particles that appear near the event horizon of a black hole can become real: one particle falls beyond the event horizon of the black hole, and another is "released," becoming real.
Your statement that "everything was created by God" is not supported by any arguments. Where did it come from? What is its basis? On the contrary, the development of nature and living organisms is well explained by the laws of physics and the theory of evolution. No one "sculpted" a man from clay, just as no one created a woman from his rib.
According to current models, the Universe can be infinite. Its flat topology allows this, therefore, both matter and energy in it can also be infinite.
Then the pasta monster is also a God who has the same qualities as the God of the bible, but he decided to create a body for himself, just like the biblical God. This means that the pasta monster is a true God.
Stop say bullshit and ignoring me
the latest theory of a steady state universe emerged in the 20th century, is considered obsolete and is not accepted by the scientific community. Big Bang Theory, String Theory, Inflationary Model, Steady State Theory All modern science is built on infinity, even mathematics where natural and fractional numbers are infinite, or fractals that can be increased to infinity. The singularity of black holes, which has infinite density, the many-worlds interpretation in quantum mechanics, eternity in philosophy. Believe in your god, but do not fool the people, there are so many beautiful things in the world to waste your life on a martyr who was crucified thousands of years ago
Hello Lilithun, thanks for taking the time to respond.
You said: “Stop say b******* and ignoring me”
My friend, this is the busiest time of year for me. I have four young children. The oldest two are home from school and the youngest two require a lot of attention (I’m currently typing while I’m feeding my daughter in her high chair). Finding time for debates is challenging, at least until things quiet down again in the new year.
You said: “the latest theory of a steady state universe emerged in the 20th century, is considered obsolete and is not accepted by the scientific community. Big Bang Theory, String Theory, Inflationary Model, Steady State Theory”
Correct — the steady state theory is not compatible with the universe with observe. Not the least being incompatible with entropy.
You said: “All modern science is built on infinity, even mathematics where natural and fractional numbers are infinite, or fractals that can be increased to infinity. The singularity of black holes, which has infinite density, the many-worlds interpretation in quantum mechanics, eternity in philosophy.”
None of these involve an actual infinite in the known universe.
A black hole is not “infinitely dense.” We might use the term, but we do not mean that it is dense with no finite limits. Quite the opposite. If we knew the full history of the universe and the full history of that black hole, we could tell you exactly how much mass has entered it, and say some very definite, finite things about its density in relation to its size and age.
Mathematics finds infinity to be a useful concept, but only that — a concept.
Mathematics can never breach actual infinity. As I gave in my example of calculating the digits of pi, you take something that’s infinite in concept, but you can never actually reach that infinity in our universe.
We are so bound by finite limits in every aspect of our existence that we can never calculate an infinite number of digits for pi. The same is true of fractals, and everywhere else infinity is used.
Infinity works as a concept, but never as a reality we could experience.
That’s why I challenged you to produce something actually infinite in real existence, something you can observe and measure that has no finite limits. Such a thing doesn’t exist.
Our universe is finite, as a whole and in all of its parts.
You said: “Believe in your god, but do not fool the people, there are so many beautiful things in the world to waste your life on a martyr who was crucified thousands of years ago”
I follow the evidence.
If the evidence points toward the necessary existence of an infinite, all-powerful Creator (and it does), then I am fooling no one in following the evidence and believing what it says.
There are indeed a great many beautiful things in this world to enjoy.
One of the greatest is the love of a Creator who takes on flesh to die in our place, so that we could be with Him forever.
🤣🤣🤣🤣What a liar you are Kyle. You are so pathetically trying to back away from your own assertions without providing any evidence. Your words refer only to your own dreams about the "infinity of the universe" where are your references to the infinity of the universe? What studies of our universe indicate that it is finite? You deleted my posts for the same reason - you have no evidence and no references, you also only dropped me one link from a fringe, not a scientist.
Hello Lilithun, thanks for writing.
You said: "🤣🤣🤣🤣What a liar you are Kyle. You are so pathetically trying to back away from your own assertions without providing any evidence."
What am I supposed to be backing away from?
I maintain the same assertions I have from the start of these conversations.
You said: "Your words refer only to your own dreams about the "infinity of the universe" where are your references to the infinity of the universe? What studies of our universe indicate that it is finite?"
It looks like you've read my conversation with Alejandro, so you already know the answer to this.
Every measurement, every observation, everything we can directly examine about our universe is finite.
Every experiment we've ever run is finite. How do we know? Because we're not sitting in it right now. Every chemical reaction, every nuclear explosion, every experiment ever done has produced finite results. If they were infinite, we'd be inside of them. An infinite reaction/explosion would have no finite limits. It would encompass everything. Given that hasn't happened, we can say quite conclusively we've never witnessed an infinite reaction or explosion.
Further, we are so bound by finite limits in all dimensions of reality that we cannot escape them, no matter how hard we try.
Consider the digits of pi -- 3.14159 and so on. Theoretically, they are infinite -- non-repeating, never ending.
But this is only the case in theory. In actual reality, we can never experience pi's digits as being infinite.
Take every atom of the universe and make it into a supercomputer, faster than any we've developed. Network them all together. Have them start calculating the digits of pi. Let them run for a trillion years. Then let them run for another trillion squared years. Then a trillion trillion trillion years more.
They'll have calculated a huge number of pi's digits -- but it will still be a finite number of digits, just as finite as the number 1. You could have the computers turn around and count their way back through all the digits they've calculated, and they'll arrive back at the start.
We can't escape our finite limits, no matter how hard we try.
There simply is no observable or measurable infinite quality in our universe or about our universe. Everything we can ever study or measure or observe is entirely, completely finite.
If you disagree, simply produce something measurably, observably infinite. If you can't do that, consider why.
You said: "You deleted my posts for the same reason - you have no evidence and no references, you also only dropped me one link from a fringe, not a scientist."
I deleted your posts because you lied.
You kept claiming they were your words, but they aren't. You copied them from Reddit, where you were also copying my posts to get someone to write a response to them.
This wouldn't have been so bad if you hadn't kept lying about them, even so far as doubling down on your lies when you were called out on them.
Yet even with this, I'm still quite willing to discuss these matters. As long as you are willing to think about the matters yourself and write your own comments, I'm happy to continue the discussion. There are several good matters in those threads worthy of further discussion.
If you're willing to engage your mind, consider the situation, and write your own responses, we can continue the conversation.
the latest theory of a steady state universe emerged in the 20th century, is considered obsolete and is not accepted by the scientific community. Big Bang Theory, String Theory, Inflationary Model, Steady State Theory All modern science is built on infinity, even mathematics where natural and fractional numbers are infinite, or fractals that can be increased to infinity. The singularity of black holes, which has infinite density, the many-worlds interpretation in quantum mechanics, eternity in philosophy. Believe in your god, but do not fool the people, there are so many beautiful things in the world to waste your life on a martyr who was crucified thousands of years ago
This is the topic on which I would like to start a dialogue. I have encountered the cosmological argument for the existence of god several times, but it is more likely to be attributed to the "god of the gaps". The first thing I want to start with is the question, where did you get the information that the universe is finite? You can simply go to Google and ask if the universe is finite and the answer will be either
a) universe is infinite.
b) We do not know whether it is finite or not.
Give a link to the works of scientists and physicists who claim that the universe and everything in it is finite. Christians making this argument are simply using philosophy, not real evidence. And the second claim is where did you get the idea that this is supposed to be your god in the first place?
Why can't it be a plurality of gods who have the same characteristics as the Christian God, they have existed forever and were not created by anyone, and one day they decided together to create the universe and humans, and they will reveal themselves to humans in 200, 1000 or 100,000 years (never mind) try to disprove it, it's your own logic. The fact that, according to your opinion, the world was created by the Christian God - there is no basis.
Hello Alejandro, thanks for starting this dialogue.
The first challenge is easily met. Our universe is finite, as a whole and in all of its parts.
When Google tells you the universe is “infinite,” it doesn’t use that word to mean an actual infinity. An actual infinity has no limits. There is no beginning and no ending. There are no finite limits, no boundaries, no borders, nothing of the kind.
Contrarily, everything about our universe is bound by finite limits of time, space, matter, and energy. Our universe doesn’t have a single infinite property or characteristic about it.
Our universe began a finite amount of time ago. Our universe is expanding — a finite amount of galaxies increasing in a finite amount of distance from each other. Our universe has a finite amount of galaxies in it, a finite amount of stars, a finite amount of matter, a finite amount of energy.
Everything you can possibly study or measure about our universe is finite, in whole and in all of its parts.
We are so bound by finitude that even things that are potentially infinite can never actually become infinite in our finite universe. Take the digits in pi — 3.14159 and so on. Supposedly, these digits are supposed to go on for infinity. But they don’t. We can never experience that in our finite universe.
Take all the atoms in the universe and turn them into super computers. Network all the super computers together. Have them start calculating the digits in pi for 1 trillion years. They’ll reach an incredibly high number of digits — but it will still be a finite number of digits, just as finite as the number 1. You can have all these computers start counting backwards, and in another trillion years they’ll arrive back at the beginning.
There is nothing actually infinite about our universe.
Every time someone says something about our universe is infinite, they’re not using the word to mean an actual infinity. They might mean that it could be potentially infinite, or something along those lines.
As to the second — as to why I would say this is the Christian God being the Creator — this argument does not delineate between which God is the Creator. This argument is only intended to establish the necessity that there IS an infinite Creator.
Once that’s established, we can look to other arguments to identify which among all the potential claimants it actually is.
But even with the simplicity of this argument, we can already rule out many of the so-called deities from various cultures around the world. This Creator must, by logical necessity, be infinite. It must be uncaused. It must exist forever without being caused, such that it can pre-exist all finite things and cause them to come into existence.
Therefore, it cannot be any of the deities who began to exist. Many of the Greek and Roman deities in their pantheons began to exist, being created by their parent-gods. These are automatically ruled out, as they had to be caused to begin existing, and cannot therefore be the infinite, uncaused Creator God.
Kyle, why can't you just links to the scientists who say the universe is finite? Give me a link where physicists say the same thing. I only trust sources from reputable people in the field. I respect you as a Christian, but where is the scientific consensus on the finiteness of the universe? So you can't claim that your God created the universe? I'm talking about the fact that the universe could have been created by the same god, or by several deities who have the same qualities as Yahweh, and who together decided to create the universe (I'm just using my imagination). And you forgot about Hindu gods and Allah, they seem to have the same qualities
Hello Alejandro, thanks for responding.
I can link you to scientists talking about this, but it’s absolutely unnecessary. The example I gave you about the digits in pi proves beyond a doubt how finite our universe is. Even on the potentially infinite things like the digits of pi, we can never cross over Into an actual infinity. We are completely and absolutely trapped in finite limits.
But if you insist on hearing from the experts, here you go: https://theconversation.com/is-space-infinite-we-asked-5-experts-165742
Five scientists give their answers to whether the universe is infinite. One says, maybe, to say yes, and to say no.
And their response is illustrate my point perfectly.
Even those who say the universe is infinite, admit that everything we can see, study, and measure is finite. They admit you cannot see anything infinite in our universe. They admit that the universe began a finite amount of time ago, 13.8 billion years. They admit that the observable universe is 46 billion light years across.
They acknowledge all of the finite limits of our universe, that everything about it is bound by finite limits of space, time, matter, and energy.
They can’t point to a single infinite property about our universe.
They discuss potentialities, what it might mean if our universe is flat, or what it might mean if our universe is curved, or what we might see if we could see further out. But all these are mere possibilities. Not anything actually measurable. Not anything actually in evidence.
And again, this particular argument is not meant to delineate which kind of God we’re talking about. It only proves that an infinite, uncaused creator God exists. Further arguments and evidence are necessary to refine which one we’re talking about.
Kyle, let's be honest. You used the first article you found on the internet, and it still states, by two experts, that the universe is infinite, with the idea that there is a multiverse. In science view universe was scrunched up to a single point. singularity. Due to a build up of pressure all the energy was released so fast that it exploded, Obviously it was burning hot. it cooled off and quarks came into existence which, shortly after formed the atomic molecules PNE (protons neutrons electrons) these atoms loved to smash, they smashed so much that they broke and rearranged themselves into simple elements; hydrogen and helium. eventually, they formed together, went through a billion year
And the cosmological argument implies not proves the existence of some sort of “cause” responsible for the existence of the universe, but it says precisely nothing with regard to what this “cause” is or even could be. The “cause” could be the universe itself, it could be natural processes operating within some sort of multiverse or other “meta” existence, etc. There’s no implication whatsoever that this “cause” is some sort of intelligent being of the sort associated with the gods of various religions, and certainly none that it is the specific God of the Christian Bible.
Hello Alejandro, thanks for responding.
You said:
"Kyle, let's be honest. You used the first article you found on the internet"
Nope. I've researched this topic for almost a decade. I knew what kind of article I wanted to share, and shared that one.
You said:
"and it still states, by two experts, that the universe is infinite, with the idea that there is a multiverse."
Go back and read what I said, above.
Even those who say the universe is infinite cannot provide a single infinite quality or aspect to the universe. There is nothing that is measurable that is infinite. There is nothing that is provable as infinite.
They have guesswork and theories -- ways in which the universe might be infinite, or ways in which you can conceive of the universe so as to think that it could be infinite.
The multiverse idea is the same -- an idea, not a measurable or provable concept. There is no experiment or measurement that proves an infinite multiverse. It is an idea, a fun theory to play around with, but nothing observable or measurable.
Everything we can study and measure and observe is finite -- every single last bit.
You demonstrate this yourself, even as you try not to.
You said:
"In science view universe was scrunched up to a single point. singularity. Due to a build up of pressure all the energy was released so fast that it exploded,"
Everything you just described is finite, not infinite.
If it was infinite, it couldn't have a build up of pressure. Pressure only happens when a finite amount of something is compressed in a finite space.
Likewise, an explosion is finite -- a condensed amount of matter and energy that becomes less condensed.
Everything about what you said can only happen if everything involved is finite.
You continue:
"Obviously it was burning hot. it cooled off and quarks came into existence which, shortly after formed the atomic molecules PNE (protons neutrons electrons) these atoms loved to smash, they smashed so much that they broke and rearranged themselves into simple elements; hydrogen and helium. eventually, they formed together, went through a billion year."
Again, everything in this is finite.
Heating up and cooling off can only happen if the energy involved is finite. If the energy was infinite -- no limits -- it couldn't heat up or cool off. It would be constant, unlimited, unaffected by finite limits of space or time or matter.
Finite atoms smash a finite amount of times in a finite span of time making a finite amount of elements.
Again, every single thing you're saying is only possible if every bit of it is finite.
If you really believe the universe is infinite, then provide one single measurable, provable infinite quality of the universe. Not a potentiality, not a hypothetical eventuality, but something directly observable and measurable. It has to be genuinely infinite -- no finite limits of any kind.
If you can find that, I'll surrender.
If you can't, then ask yourself why you can't.
You said:
"And the cosmological argument implies not proves the existence of some sort of “cause” responsible for the existence of the universe, but it says precisely nothing with regard to what this “cause” is or even could be."
Of course it does.
It says that this cause has to be uncaused, itself. At the bottom of the chain of causality, there must be something uncaused -- something that exists without being caused to exist. It must exist perpetually, without beginning or end. This thing must exist, because if it didn't, nothing would pre-exist the first finite thing, such that it could cause the first finite thing to begin existing.
It also tells us that this cause is exceedingly powerful, far beyond anything we can replicate, because it can create an entire universe.
This cause must therefore be eternal and omnipotent -- two of the key qualities of the God of the Bible.
You said:
"The “cause” could be the universe itself, it could be natural processes operating within some sort of multiverse or other “meta” existence, etc."
It can't, actually.
This cause must be infinite. But there are no infinite properties to our universe. Our universe bears no signs of being infinite, but rather every aspect is entirely finite, as we covered above. Something finite that was caused to exist cannot be the infinite source that is uncaused.
You said:
"There’s no implication whatsoever that this “cause” is some sort of intelligent being of the sort associated with the gods of various religions, and certainly none that it is the specific God of the Christian Bible."
We can tell quite clearly this cause is eternal and omnipotent.
We can infer that this source is intelligent, and has the will to create a universe capable of sustaining life, because that's what it did.
Further arguments are necessary to establish that it is, in fact, the God of the Bible.
But again, we've already eliminated most conceptions of God from contention, because any deity that was caused to exist or whose power is limited, instead of omnipotent, cannot be this eternal, omnipotent Cause.
If you have been researching this for ten years, provide more specific arguments, articles, evidence from scientists, their consensus on the finiteness of the universe. In 10 years you should have found a lot of this material, or where did you research it? From what sources?
We do not know what is beyond our Universe. It may simply be another level of reality embedded in something larger. The nesting of systems does not require the intervention of a divine demiurge at all; it may be an infinite hierarchy of structures, one of which is our Universe. This hypothesis is no less logical and even more economical in terms of explanation. Here Occam takes out his Razor. If we can explain the existence of the Universe through the laws of physics, even if embedded in even more complex laws, then why drag in here the abstract concept of God, which does not give us anything new in understanding nature? We see that the laws of physics operate completely independently, without the need for any intelligent intervention. Why should we believe that there is something else beyond our Universe?